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on this episode of skeptical I feel like

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when I'm reading the book you're talking

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about a deep evolution a spiritual

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evolution that that I get I just don't

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know that we can really connect that

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with the dorky neo Darwinist ik [\h__\h]

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that we've been fed that we just know

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isn't really true at some fundamental

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level I mean it's kind of been proven to

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be moverá least extremely incomplete and

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at the worst just not really very true

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my approach is look there does seem to

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be the fact of biological evolution

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whatever the mechanisms however we come

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to understand that and it's a very

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powerful idea then a hundred years ago

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something amazing happened with Big Bang

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Theory when we went look it's not just

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life it's not just biology which is

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evolved it's the whole universe evolved

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over 13.8 billion years so this period

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where we could argue about the

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biological mechanisms it's only the tail

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end anyway I mean clearly evolution

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can't be about genetics only because

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there was no genetics when there was the

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evolution of basic gases that was there

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was nothing you know so the evolutionary

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process is much bigger than any

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biological evolutionary process stay

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with us

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex garrison on this

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episode an interview that I think is

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just perfect fit for what we do on

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skeptic Oh Tim Freak is back it's been a

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couple years since he's been on but he's

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written a book called soul story that

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attempts to kind of resolve this science

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and spirituality conflict that we talk

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about so much and we all seem to be

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right in the middle of I think the

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interview is quite self-explanatory so

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no need for a long introduction let's

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get right to my very interesting talk

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with a very interesting Tim Freak today

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we welcome Tim Freak back to skeptic oh

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to talk about his new book soul story

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evolution and the purpose of life for

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any of you who may not be familiar with

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Tim's excellent work multiple

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bestsellers his work as a presenter and

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he has he's really cool looking

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conferences well if you don't know Tim

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then you're in for a real treat I'll

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just leave it at that Tim welcome back

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thanks so much for joining me on skeptic

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Oh to talk about this very cool new book

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e errs thank you for having me back it's

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a conversation I've been looking forward

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to because I know it's gonna be

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inquiring and address some proper issues

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okay okay you know first off I have to

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tell you you know I'm used to getting

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electronic copies of books but you kind

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of insisted hey I want to send you the

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physical copy and I can see why I mean

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this is really kind of a cool thing it's

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kind of a medium is the message book you

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have to experience it because you've

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tried to and I think very successfully

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done some different things with the

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physical structure of the book that is

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part of the message is that kind of your

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intent it is absolutely I wanted to I

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wanted to explore a lot of very big

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ideas very quickly in a way that cook

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because I thought the whole thing was

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stands or Falls as a complete narrative

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so I wanted to move quickly but I wanted

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people to be able to take in the ideas

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without a lot of padding

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and so I looked at how I could lay it

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out in a completely novel way like you

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said and you want to if I say to

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listeners there's no full stops and

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there's no capital letters it will sound

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like it's going to be chaotic but

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actually because of the way it's laid

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out it's kind of minimalist and clean

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and the idea is I hope I like little

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droplets they kind of go in you can

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contemplate them and move on to the next

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one and so far the response has been

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like yours Alex people have really loved

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it so I'm encouraged it works no it does

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work it's a little bit you know you're

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like well then it just kind of does you

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can't kind of suck it up faster it's

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very very nicely done and you know as

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anyone who knows your work but

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especially this particular book soul

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story it's a real fit for exactly the

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kind of stuff that we talked about on

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skeptic oh you know this idea the way

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you start the book let's give people the

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basic premise of this ambiguity that you

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tap into and I think so many people feel

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an experience between you know living in

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a scientific technology driven world and

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yet being drawn to the magical and the

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mystical part of life I mean frame that

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up the basic premise well I think you

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know I became a philosopher when I was

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very young because I wanted to

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understand my life and Here I am much

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older and I'm still trying to do the

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same thing and I wanted to understand my

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life as I actually experienced it and

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the way I experienced life is very

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ambiguous on the one hand I clearly live

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in a reality which I need to understand

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in a cause-and-effect way you know I

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drop something it falls and there's

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there's a there's a kind of a almost a

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brutal causality to the world and

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there's a level of in which it feels

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pretty chaotic and meaningless on the

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one hand I know but on the other hand I

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also experience life to be intensely

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magical full of people what people often

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called synchronicities but that those

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moments when meaning breaks out when

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I've explored the awakened state which

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has been my preoccupation for most of my

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life there's a profound sense that this

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journey which were on it isn't is

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incredibly important

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it has deep purpose and somehow I need

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to come up with a way of understanding

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the whole the scope of reality which can

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incorporate both of those and that's you

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know for a long time I think like like

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many people I've just lived with the

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ambiguity and try to ignore it but as a

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philosopher over the last 10 20 years I

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just can't do that I needed to go look

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it's there is there a way in which we

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can understand this which honors both

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those experiences which incorporates my

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understanding my experience of life in

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the way the science address is it but

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also my experience of life in the way

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that spirituality addresses it I get

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that in a sense I get that a lot of

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people are coming at it from that way

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tap into that need to understand things

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scientifically and why you were drawn to

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that what do you struggle with

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scientifically why do we have to bring

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science along I guess well I don't think

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we need to if you're happy not to and a

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lot of people aren't but I myself find

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that I find the scientific understanding

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is so powerful it is it is able to to

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explain so much of its own level and not

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not finally not not not in a way that's

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complete in ways that I think need

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questioning and revising but

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nevertheless that I can sit here in

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Glastonbury in the UK and talk to you on

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the other side of the world is because

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of this incredible understanding which

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the scientific method in science science

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has given us and I can't help but be

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impressed by that and which is why it's

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become the dominant worldview especially

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in amongst the intellectual mainstream

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anyway not not I don't think generally

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but in the intellectual mainstream

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respect certainly in the UK it's the

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dominant view and on the one hand you

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know it can I mean I love watching all

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these documentaries about the wonders of

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the universe and all the rest of any is

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very wonderful but there's a lot of

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small print and the small print that

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comes with the mainstream view of

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science is oh and by the way you live in

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a universe which is accidental your life

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has no meaning you're here for a few

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minutes long enough to go what the hell

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and you're gone and it can't address any

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of these other experiences that's the

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issue

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so within its own terms

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it feels like we need it to have a

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complete description of the reality

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we're in and in particular and this is a

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thing which the book focus focuses in on

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over the last a hundred years especially

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it has come up with this incredible

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evolutionary narrative of the evolution

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the emergence of the whole universe and

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that is you know whether the details are

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right or wrong that you know will go on

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debating that for hundreds of years I'm

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sure but the overall narrative is

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incredibly powerful and what strikes me

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from that narrative is it can help us

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unite the experience was that we have of

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soul or spirituality with the

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experiences which are much more basic

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the way matter works the way that

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biology works which science has been

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prohibited with and that there is a way

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in which we can see them as coming

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together rather than being in conflict

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but both need to change for that to

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happen so this idea of evolution and

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also I think you use the word emergence

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there but those two ideas are threaded

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throughout this book and I think they're

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the vehicle by which you see this

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merging together this resolving of the

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ambiguity and I'd like you to dive into

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that a little bit I'm not totally sold I

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guess that that one evolution packs

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enough punch to really do that I mean I

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feel like when I'm reading the book

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you're talking about a deep evolution a

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spiritual evolution that that I get I

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just don't know that we can really

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connect that with the dorky neo

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Darwinist ik [\h__\h] that we've been

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fed that we just know isn't really true

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at some fundamental level I mean it's

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kind of been proven to be at the very

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least extremely incomplete and at the

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worst just not really very true I think

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for me the whole issue about biological

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evolution and neo-darwinism

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is irrelevant actually in that what I'm

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trying to do does it doesn't make much

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difference whether it's right or wrong

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be

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I don't come up that close as you'll

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know really there's not very many

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scientific ideas in the book it's not a

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book about science it's really taking

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the scientific narrative in its broadest

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philosophical sense now how the

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mechanism works for biological evolution

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that's a whole issue you could write

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books and books on that but I'm not the

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person to do it well my my my approach

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is look there does seem to be the fact

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of biological evolution

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whatever the mechanisms however we come

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to understand that and I think the

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philosophy which I took you late could

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be used retrospectively to actually

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question a lot of the assumptions of of

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neo-darwinism but I don't I'm not doing

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that

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right here what I'm doing here or my

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play really to those coming from a

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scientific point of view because I want

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to address both I want to go hey people

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00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:14,490
from a scientific point of view see it

275
00:11:17,749 --> 00:11:15,930
this way hey people from a spiritual

276
00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:17,759
point of view see it this way so from

277
00:11:22,009 --> 00:11:20,550
the scientific point of view the basic

278
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:22,019
way that I'm coming in is to say look

279
00:11:26,660 --> 00:11:24,480
you know with Darwin and was we

280
00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:26,670
developed this idea of biological

281
00:11:33,410 --> 00:11:29,430
evolution now we need to keep it real

282
00:11:36,579 --> 00:11:33,420
and aside 'ya took hold and it's a very

283
00:11:39,769 --> 00:11:36,589
powerful idea then a hundred years ago

284
00:11:41,989 --> 00:11:39,779
something amazing happened with Big Bang

285
00:11:44,329 --> 00:11:41,999
Theory when we went look it's not just

286
00:11:48,259 --> 00:11:44,339
life it's not just biology which is

287
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:48,269
evolved it's the whole universe evolved

288
00:11:53,059 --> 00:11:51,689
over 13.8 billion years so this period

289
00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:53,069
where we could argue about the

290
00:11:57,290 --> 00:11:54,929
biological mechanisms it's only the tail

291
00:11:58,910 --> 00:11:57,300
end anyway I mean clearly evolution

292
00:12:00,439 --> 00:11:58,920
can't be about genetics only because

293
00:12:03,259 --> 00:12:00,449
there was no genetics when there was the

294
00:12:04,730 --> 00:12:03,269
evolution of basic gases that was there

295
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,740
was nothing you know so the evolutionary

296
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:06,480
process is much bigger than any

297
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:08,639
biological evolutionary process but the

298
00:12:14,869 --> 00:12:12,240
key thing for me is look we see now that

299
00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:14,879
we can see these two phases of evolution

300
00:12:19,850 --> 00:12:17,790
which have distinct mechanisms and which

301
00:12:21,499 --> 00:12:19,860
which are do you know have evolved from

302
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:21,509
each other one is the development of

303
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,610
matter which is seen you know or the

304
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:25,920
elemental table that develop and the the

305
00:12:30,169 --> 00:12:28,649
galaxies and norther and then we've seen

306
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,179
this whole different thing which is the

307
00:12:35,539 --> 00:12:32,399
evolution of life which is a more

308
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:35,549
emergent phase its emerge from that more

309
00:12:42,019 --> 00:12:38,160
primitive phase of evolution

310
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:42,029
my the thing which I'm suggesting is

311
00:12:45,379 --> 00:12:44,130
that we now having gone back and gone oh

312
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:45,389
there was a phase of evolution before

313
00:12:49,579 --> 00:12:48,000
biological evolution now we need to go

314
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:49,589
oh yeah and there's another phase of

315
00:12:56,420 --> 00:12:52,800
evolution after biological evolution and

316
00:12:58,490 --> 00:12:56,430
that's the evolution of soul and that's

317
00:13:01,280 --> 00:12:58,500
what spirituality has been studying all

318
00:13:02,749 --> 00:13:01,290
of this time now I feel like if you let

319
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:02,759
me run I need to say something about the

320
00:13:08,269 --> 00:13:05,279
word soul because to make sense of what

321
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:08,279
I mean by that what I'm saying so what I

322
00:13:13,550 --> 00:13:11,490
mean is the word soul I like it because

323
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,560
it's warm but we can use many names

324
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:15,839
actually the ancient word was percy he

325
00:13:21,019 --> 00:13:19,050
or psyche and we use that word now so

326
00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:21,029
what I mean by soul what the word

327
00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:23,940
originally meant is it's referring to

328
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:27,060
the fact that right now you and I and

329
00:13:31,699 --> 00:13:29,639
everyone listening is experiencing two

330
00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:31,709
utterly different dimensions of

331
00:13:37,939 --> 00:13:33,990
experience on the one hand we're

332
00:13:41,180 --> 00:13:37,949
experiencing sensation of being a body

333
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:41,190
and animal in the world and on the other

334
00:13:46,429 --> 00:13:43,290
hand we're experiencing a completely

335
00:13:48,769 --> 00:13:46,439
different level of experience which you

336
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:48,779
can call the imagination or the mind or

337
00:13:53,179 --> 00:13:50,880
the psyche or the soul and in my view

338
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:53,189
these are all really different words for

339
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:54,569
the same thing which come from different

340
00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:56,880
different linguistic roots what it's

341
00:14:01,460 --> 00:13:59,220
referring to is an absolute indisputable

342
00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:01,470
reality and one way I love to get that

343
00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:04,620
because as I love the obvious is to say

344
00:14:10,699 --> 00:14:08,579
as I speak now what you're hearing Alex

345
00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:10,709
and what the listeners are hearing is is

346
00:14:14,689 --> 00:14:13,380
me make funny noises that's what's

347
00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:14,699
actually happening in the world of

348
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:18,180
sensation and yet what you're actually

349
00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:20,880
experiencing is meaning but that's all

350
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:21,660
in Soul

351
00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:24,360
that's all in psyche there's no meaning

352
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:27,000
in the funny noises that's a different

353
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:28,920
level of reality which we are

354
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:31,199
experiencing and it's a reality which is

355
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,060
not made of matter in our experience we

356
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:34,800
can you look at it right now it doesn't

357
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:37,410
exist in space it has no location and

358
00:14:41,929 --> 00:14:40,230
it's made of mind stuff it's made of

359
00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:41,939
memories and images and thoughts and

360
00:14:46,429 --> 00:14:43,829
imagination and my experience as an

361
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:46,439
explorer of soul is if you go off into

362
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,470
it if you explore it with meditation or

363
00:14:52,579 --> 00:14:51,120
or I'll wash

364
00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:52,589
girl or whatever you want to explore it

365
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:55,140
with it's huge out there there's all

366
00:14:57,710 --> 00:14:56,850
sorts of things to discover in that

367
00:15:01,010 --> 00:14:57,720
other dimension

368
00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:01,020
so what I'm postulating is it I don't

369
00:15:05,210 --> 00:15:02,820
think I think anyone who even though the

370
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:05,220
most mainstream scientist would agree

371
00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:08,820
that the latest thing to arrive in the

372
00:15:14,450 --> 00:15:11,270
evolutionary process is psyche you saw

373
00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:14,460
it the problem is that for mainstream

374
00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:16,440
science they go yeah but it's just a

375
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:19,020
side effect of a piece of meat but

376
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:20,970
that's like saying the fact that you and

377
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:22,770
I are alive is a side effect of a load

378
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:25,170
of chemicals with carbon but it's much

379
00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:28,050
more than that if you took a pile of

380
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:30,150
chemicals that make up my body it would

381
00:15:33,860 --> 00:15:32,130
be very different meeting my body even

382
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:33,870
though the constitutes would be the same

383
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:36,000
it's an emergent thing so what I'm

384
00:15:41,570 --> 00:15:38,730
suggesting in essence is we need to

385
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:41,580
understand the the emergence the

386
00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:44,220
evolutionary emergence of soul the place

387
00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:45,960
where we are functioning now the place

388
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:47,430
where we're having this conversation as

389
00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:50,220
the emergence of a whole new level of

390
00:15:57,530 --> 00:15:52,920
reality and that that level of reality

391
00:16:01,370 --> 00:15:57,540
has come through first matter then life

392
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:01,380
biology and now this is an more emergent

393
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:03,450
level soul and it's in that more

394
00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:06,089
emergent level that we can make sense of

395
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:07,640
experiences like magic

396
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:10,950
meaning and immortality all the things

397
00:16:15,890 --> 00:16:13,110
which spirituality is concerned with

398
00:16:18,199 --> 00:16:15,900
it's a very interesting idea I mean

399
00:16:20,449 --> 00:16:18,209
you're extremely brave to stick their

400
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:20,459
neck out there and try and do something

401
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:23,070
completely different like this and to

402
00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:25,680
really try and integrate you know this

403
00:16:29,510 --> 00:16:28,529
whole science thing with the religion

404
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,520
thing because you also have this

405
00:16:33,860 --> 00:16:31,680
background of being kind of someone

406
00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:33,870
who's who's been characterized as being

407
00:16:37,310 --> 00:16:35,580
very critical of religion and you're

408
00:16:40,449 --> 00:16:37,320
trying to kind of bring that camp back

409
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:40,459
together but I do want to drill into

410
00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:42,959
this a couple of these things of the

411
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,520
evolution the emergence thing because

412
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:46,800
like what you're saying about evolution

413
00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:50,310
it's not just the the mechanism in what

414
00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:52,080
we can write books for I mean the

415
00:16:57,850 --> 00:16:54,750
counter to what you're saying is that

416
00:17:00,440 --> 00:16:57,860
that science has got the evolution thing

417
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:00,450
fundamentally wrong and that yeah there

418
00:17:04,819 --> 00:17:03,360
is this adaptation that we can see in

419
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:04,829
Mars on a

420
00:17:10,429 --> 00:17:08,089
on a dark tree but that's really

421
00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:10,439
mischaracterizing what's really going on

422
00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:12,769
because we're all in this field of

423
00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:15,689
consciousness and the thing that really

424
00:17:21,610 --> 00:17:19,049
shook me up is when I learned about the

425
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:21,620
scientific evidence for self-directed

426
00:17:26,929 --> 00:17:24,510
neuroplasticity which is a really fancy

427
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:26,939
way of saying that you can think about

428
00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:28,559
thinking and change the physical

429
00:17:34,279 --> 00:17:31,140
structure of your brain well given that

430
00:17:37,879 --> 00:17:34,289
we can do that then the fundamental idea

431
00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:37,889
behind evolution is backwards is that

432
00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:40,820
our consciousness is driving our

433
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:41,940
evolution

434
00:17:46,009 --> 00:17:44,130
it is now Alex what about before there

435
00:17:47,450 --> 00:17:46,019
was human consciousness what about going

436
00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:47,460
to the dinosaurs again because there's

437
00:17:50,419 --> 00:17:49,049
such a great example if we're just in a

438
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:50,429
field of consciousness and it's up and

439
00:17:55,399 --> 00:17:52,740
there is no evolution and it's all you

440
00:17:57,379 --> 00:17:55,409
know it's like it it's very hard to make

441
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:57,389
sense of those things and then you need

442
00:18:00,919 --> 00:17:58,679
to make sense of them in a new way and

443
00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:00,929
I'm not really sure we can but Tim we

444
00:18:05,419 --> 00:18:03,750
can't appeal to time to kind of rescue

445
00:18:07,639 --> 00:18:05,429
us there take something that's really

446
00:18:10,009 --> 00:18:07,649
tricky for science like entanglement

447
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:10,019
right entanglement pushes us to the

448
00:18:14,629 --> 00:18:12,210
limits of science because we can no

449
00:18:17,509 --> 00:18:14,639
longer measure we can no longer observe

450
00:18:19,220 --> 00:18:17,519
that the science is obsoleted itself and

451
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:19,230
saying hey you know what I came to the

452
00:18:22,460 --> 00:18:21,240
conclusion the conclusion is we don't

453
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:22,470
know what we're doing we can't really

454
00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:24,090
measure we can't really observe well

455
00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:27,240
when did entanglement happen that goes

456
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:28,620
all the way back to the Big Bang right

457
00:18:31,879 --> 00:18:30,330
if you see these two particles and we

458
00:18:33,409 --> 00:18:31,889
say oh this how they become entangled

459
00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:33,419
wouldn't there they were entangled all

460
00:18:36,639 --> 00:18:34,529
the way back to the Big Bang

461
00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:36,649
so if entanglement is some

462
00:18:41,539 --> 00:18:38,700
representation of consciousness at some

463
00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:41,549
level then the consciousness then

464
00:18:46,820 --> 00:18:44,940
consciousness existed all the way back

465
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:46,830
or at least that has to be on the table

466
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:49,919
as another working hypothesis is that it

467
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:51,720
doesn't work for me it does I mean I've

468
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:53,730
played with those ideas for 20 years 30

469
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:55,440
years and I've ended up having to say it

470
00:18:58,879 --> 00:18:56,880
doesn't work for me it's very attractive

471
00:19:00,919 --> 00:18:58,889
I've come very close to saying those

472
00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:00,929
sort of things in many of my books but

473
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:02,580
when I've really looked at it for me it

474
00:19:06,289 --> 00:19:04,110
just doesn't work you know in

475
00:19:07,850 --> 00:19:06,299
consciousness as the background just

476
00:19:09,649 --> 00:19:07,860
feels like the wrong word because

477
00:19:11,330 --> 00:19:09,659
consciousness comes and goes for one

478
00:19:12,529 --> 00:19:11,340
thing you know what happens when you you

479
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:12,539
know if you hit my head I go unconscious

480
00:19:16,610 --> 00:19:15,120
the world disappears so it's like in a

481
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:16,620
field of consciousness I mean I've used

482
00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:18,050
these words I send a thing I'm sim

483
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:19,790
ethic to the view because I've been very

484
00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:21,410
close to it and it's the in it's

485
00:19:26,530 --> 00:19:23,840
essentially the spiritual view but my

486
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:26,540
feeling is that neither that that one

487
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:28,730
the extreme which goes look the ground

488
00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:31,850
is the subjective consciousness is as

489
00:19:36,370 --> 00:19:33,830
wrong as the ground which with which of

490
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:36,380
the mainstream what I call object of his

491
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:38,450
science view which goes no no no the

492
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:40,970
ground is the objective only the object

493
00:19:44,290 --> 00:19:42,410
really exists the subjects is an

494
00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:44,300
illusion and then spirituality comes

495
00:19:47,770 --> 00:19:46,100
across in its various idealistic forms

496
00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:47,780
and goes oh no no what consciousness is

497
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:48,920
what really exists and everything is

498
00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:51,440
just a form in consciousness my feeling

499
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:53,630
is as a para logical thinker someone who

500
00:19:57,250 --> 00:19:55,250
wants to bring the opposites together is

501
00:20:00,220 --> 00:19:57,260
that we need to conceive of both

502
00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:00,230
subjectivity and objectivity as arising

503
00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:02,630
through the evolutionary process so that

504
00:20:09,370 --> 00:20:06,110
everything in existence has a subjective

505
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:09,380
and an objective nature and the way that

506
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:10,910
you can characterize that is that right

507
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:12,650
from the beginning which is where I

508
00:20:17,740 --> 00:20:14,210
think you're at angleman stuff might

509
00:20:20,350 --> 00:20:17,750
come in is that every individual thing

510
00:20:21,670 --> 00:20:20,360
and and I'd like to explore the nature

511
00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:21,680
of time with you if we can in a minute

512
00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:23,960
because I don't see things as things I

513
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:26,390
see them as processes but every

514
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:30,130
individual process stroke thing is

515
00:20:35,530 --> 00:20:32,390
individuated it's a it's a separate part

516
00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:35,540
of an integral whole and as such that

517
00:20:39,970 --> 00:20:37,700
everything else is viewing it in some

518
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:39,980
way and it is viewing everything else in

519
00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:42,320
some way whether it's a basic chemical

520
00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:45,620
just registering the the the

521
00:20:50,050 --> 00:20:48,100
electrochemical environment its

522
00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:50,060
discriminating its environment in some

523
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:52,340
way and by the time you get life a plant

524
00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:54,890
life and then sensuality and so far it's

525
00:20:59,260 --> 00:20:57,350
discriminating its environment in

526
00:21:00,670 --> 00:20:59,270
evermore evolutionary way so one of the

527
00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:00,680
things which for me and we need to turn

528
00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:03,020
around is that science sees because it's

529
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:05,990
Objectivist only it sees eeveelution as

530
00:21:10,150 --> 00:21:08,570
the evolution of a lot of objects which

531
00:21:13,090 --> 00:21:10,160
some which eventually for no apparent

532
00:21:15,220 --> 00:21:13,100
reason create a subject as a by-product

533
00:21:17,620 --> 00:21:15,230
as Epton of eppy phenomena what I'm

534
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:17,630
suggesting is more closer to pan

535
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:19,430
psychism but different not the

536
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,410
consciousness is all the way through but

537
00:21:26,530 --> 00:21:23,840
subjectivity is all the way through so

538
00:21:28,590 --> 00:21:26,540
that subjectively we've seen the

539
00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:28,600
evolution of discrimination from

540
00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:31,160
electrochemical discrimination

541
00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:33,740
to sensual discrimination through to

542
00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:35,049
what we're experiencing which is

543
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:37,700
conceptual discrimination and as that

544
00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:41,210
happens the subjectivity evolves leading

545
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:43,700
to this level of psyche or soul that

546
00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:46,130
we're experiencing right now so the

547
00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:48,440
grand is neither of those the ground I

548
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,700
call its spirit because that's the

549
00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:51,440
ancient word for it Hegel used the same

550
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:53,000
word he can use any word you like that

551
00:21:58,180 --> 00:21:55,730
there's a primal potentiality which

552
00:22:00,490 --> 00:21:58,190
comes which from which everything is

553
00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:00,500
becoming realized and it's realizing

554
00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:03,289
itself in ever more emergent ways both

555
00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:06,280
objectively with more ever more complex

556
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:10,070
objective forms and subjectively being

557
00:22:14,860 --> 00:22:11,690
able to read its environment in ever

558
00:22:17,890 --> 00:22:14,870
more complicated complex and conscious

559
00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:17,900
ways so consciousness has arisen out of

560
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:22,190
that evolving subjectivity now if you

561
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:24,200
can indulge me once you've reached the

562
00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:28,340
point of soul then I think this is going

563
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:30,950
look this level of soul is not some it's

564
00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:32,690
not not an epiphenomena it's not a

565
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:36,080
passive by-product it's an engaged

566
00:22:41,409 --> 00:22:39,440
process so just as the level of life

567
00:22:44,289 --> 00:22:41,419
that the fact that my body is alive is

568
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:44,299
changing the chemicals within it so the

569
00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:46,730
fact that their soul which is which is

570
00:22:50,649 --> 00:22:48,350
where we tell stories where we have

571
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:50,659
narratives that is affecting the

572
00:22:55,390 --> 00:22:53,240
material and the biological worlds which

573
00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:55,400
is why we get the phenomena you talk

574
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,190
about neuroplasticity why we get bigger

575
00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:00,080
than that why we get magic while we get

576
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:03,289
intention ality leading to the unfolding

577
00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:06,010
of story in our lives in meaningful ways

578
00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:10,460
that we can start to to see the way in

579
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:13,190
which this level of soul is actually

580
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:17,690
interacting with sense you'll the sense

581
00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:20,720
your world but not in a total way this

582
00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:22,120
is the key for what I'm saying

583
00:23:26,620 --> 00:23:24,049
Objectivists are going it's just the

584
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:26,630
object all the rest does nothing you get

585
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:28,159
a lot of spirituality which goes it's

586
00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:30,169
just consciousness you can override

587
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:31,640
everything everything that happens to

588
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:33,049
you is because of your unconscious

589
00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:35,600
intentions whereas it seems to me that

590
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:37,700
it the whole of the evolutionary process

591
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:41,210
means that leave the universe exists on

592
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:42,970
a lot of levels at once

593
00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:45,910
from the very very basic material right

594
00:23:51,330 --> 00:23:48,280
the way through to this level of soul

595
00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:51,340
and they're all interacting all of the

596
00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:54,040
time and to miss out any of them is to

597
00:23:59,100 --> 00:23:56,470
misunderstand our our situation on a

598
00:24:02,310 --> 00:23:59,110
spiritual level that's very deep and

599
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:02,320
profound and also is there's a line

600
00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:04,090
through just about every wisdom

601
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:06,280
tradition that would come to agree with

602
00:24:10,050 --> 00:24:07,990
you and I think that's a great

603
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:10,060
compliment to your work that you found a

604
00:24:15,150 --> 00:24:11,980
different path and yet it does seem to

605
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:15,160
echo and resonate with other paths out

606
00:24:21,450 --> 00:24:18,610
there I do feel the need I guess to keep

607
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:21,460
coming back to some of these scientific

608
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:24,550
words that were using but before you do

609
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:26,110
that Alex can I just say one little

610
00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:27,310
thing about what you've just said

611
00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:29,350
because it feels important it feels like

612
00:24:32,550 --> 00:24:31,060
what I said earlier was on the thing

613
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:32,560
that I'm doing is I'm asking both

614
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,710
science and spirituality to change so

615
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:37,360
for science I'm asking them to swallow a

616
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:39,190
big thing I'm saying look there's

617
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:41,200
another phase of evolution which is the

618
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:43,150
evolution of soul and it's completely

619
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:45,460
unlike that everything else that science

620
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:46,930
studies for one thing you can't measure

621
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:48,130
in the same way it's not made of matter

622
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:49,930
it's a whole different ballgame but it's

623
00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:52,480
linked to it but with spirituality I'm

624
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:53,740
saying something which will just which

625
00:24:58,500 --> 00:24:56,170
is also pretty confrontational for many

626
00:25:00,300 --> 00:24:58,510
spiritual traditions because in

627
00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:00,310
spirituality you get consciousness comes

628
00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:02,830
first the soul is eternal you know the

629
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:04,180
place you go after you die has been

630
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:07,450
there forever you there's a great

631
00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:09,280
purpose it's all come from God in the

632
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:11,140
first place and this is his dream or

633
00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:13,710
this is its dream or its this is a

634
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:16,300
mistake it's made or all those myths

635
00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:19,110
what I'm saying to spirituality is no

636
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:22,380
let's let's contemplate the idea that

637
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:26,080
everything everything is the

638
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:28,750
potentiality of spirit coming into form

639
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:31,690
is the potentiality experience emerging

640
00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:34,290
so the place we go when we die

641
00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:37,240
which are right about a lot in that

642
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:40,060
either is itself evolving the the

643
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:43,510
imagination the place of images which we

644
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:45,010
can inhabit without the body we're

645
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:47,770
inhabiting it right now has arisen the

646
00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:50,530
soul was as a risen as emerged

647
00:25:56,850 --> 00:25:53,640
everything meaning has emerged

648
00:26:00,120 --> 00:25:56,860
immortality has emerged so that it's

649
00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:00,130
asking to let go of this idea that

650
00:26:04,169 --> 00:26:02,260
that's already eternal and pre-existent

651
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:04,179
and seeing everything in an evolutionary

652
00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:07,270
current which enables us then to explain

653
00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:10,630
why the world is actually also pre

654
00:26:15,390 --> 00:26:13,720
unpleasant as well as being magical it's

655
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:15,400
pretty full of meaningless unpleasant

656
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:17,890
horrors because it's evolving from that

657
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:19,840
it's evolving from a place where there

658
00:26:24,590 --> 00:26:22,170
is no meaning or not meaning in that way

659
00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:24,600
into a place where there really is and

660
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:27,280
and that this is what I'm trying to say

661
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:28,450
that's what that's why it's

662
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:30,940
confrontational to both sides well great

663
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,610
I don't mind a little confrontational

664
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:35,200
especially when it's well thought out

665
00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:37,780
and super cool presented like it is in

666
00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:39,280
your book I mean you're taking a stand

667
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:43,000
three problems though one is evolution

668
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:45,190
and the way you're using evolution and

669
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:46,890
you're using it from a scientific

670
00:26:52,049 --> 00:26:49,630
basically something Leonhardt inherited

671
00:26:54,150 --> 00:26:52,059
from Darwin and it doesn't work and it

672
00:26:56,460 --> 00:26:54,160
doesn't work because it doesn't factor

673
00:26:58,799 --> 00:26:56,470
in what we know about evolution and that

674
00:27:00,780 --> 00:26:58,809
is that consciousness is driving

675
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,790
evolution and we can prove that like I

676
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:02,320
said with self-directed neuroplasticity

677
00:27:06,210 --> 00:27:04,570
if we don't factor that in we're never

678
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:06,220
going to get science on board because

679
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:08,049
science has looked at it just stop a

680
00:27:11,070 --> 00:27:09,730
second half let's just look at that one

681
00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:11,080
idea before you move on to the others

682
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:12,910
because look what I'm saying to you is

683
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:16,000
yes you're right first of all I you know

684
00:27:19,230 --> 00:27:17,710
what I'm presenting with biological

685
00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:19,240
evolution it doesn't have to be to do

686
00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:21,040
with Darwin at all you know it just

687
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:23,260
started with God yeah take take don't

688
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:25,150
take don't run out of it but we have a

689
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:27,490
lot of baggage to drag along just like

690
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:28,720
when we get into we're start talking

691
00:27:33,419 --> 00:27:30,970
about spirituality and religion there's

692
00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:33,429
a lot of baggage that we do have to

693
00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:35,950
unpack so I mean I think when we start

694
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:38,260
talking about an evolutionary process we

695
00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:40,990
have to say what that is take take the

696
00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:42,360
narrow place because it's a good example

697
00:27:47,789 --> 00:27:44,620
see it seems to me that what we need to

698
00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:47,799
explain is how can consciousness be

699
00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:49,960
affecting evolution now human

700
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:53,080
consciousness whereas clearly it wasn't

701
00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:54,730
affecting it in the same way when there

702
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:56,200
was dinosaurs or even before there was

703
00:28:00,000 --> 00:27:58,000
any life whatsoever that that second

704
00:28:01,710 --> 00:28:00,010
part is an assumption so well and I'm

705
00:28:03,870 --> 00:28:01,720
saying is if you take the first part

706
00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:03,880
which science is not onboard with I mean

707
00:28:07,740 --> 00:28:05,800
Tim and I are talking and we're onboard

708
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:07,750
with that but we're going to have to

709
00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:09,910
drag site that's going to be a huge

710
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:12,220
over the chasm for science to get to

711
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:14,470
that point and say gee I guess we were I

712
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,210
guess that that they're wrong about

713
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:18,880
evolution and that evolution doesn't

714
00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:23,230
explain the mind brain problem they are

715
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:25,030
not on board with that I talked these

716
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:27,190
folks all the time of course they know

717
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:29,170
and one of the big confrontational

718
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:32,320
things in in the philosophy of emergent

719
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:34,810
spirituality and soul story is that it

720
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:38,460
returns to something which is a complete

721
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:41,290
you know it's really it's really not

722
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:43,510
approved of these days which is it what

723
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:45,310
would be dismissed as a duality of body

724
00:28:49,710 --> 00:28:47,530
and soul because even its spiritual

725
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:49,720
circles it's become progressive it seems

726
00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:51,730
to think the body and soul will body and

727
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:53,980
mind are the same thing as certainly in

728
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:56,050
spirit in for science they are the same

729
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,320
thing

730
00:28:59,610 --> 00:28:58,720
now spirituality has always claimed

731
00:29:01,380 --> 00:28:59,620
they're not the same thing because

732
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:01,390
that's what allows the survival of the

733
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:04,450
soul after death and one of the great

734
00:29:09,150 --> 00:29:06,640
tragedies of the the currents which

735
00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:09,160
evolved in the 70s and 80s of dismissing

736
00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:11,700
what used to be called derisively

737
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:14,590
Cartesian dualism in fact because it was

738
00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:17,260
seen as preventing oneness was that that

739
00:29:20,970 --> 00:29:18,820
got lost and and and it seemed

740
00:29:22,620 --> 00:29:20,980
progressive but actually it created a

741
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:22,630
real philosophical problem what I'm

742
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:24,250
suggesting is that they are separate

743
00:29:27,810 --> 00:29:26,110
things but they've arisen they have an

744
00:29:29,940 --> 00:29:27,820
emergent relationship so they're linked

745
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:29,950
that's as we experience them to be for

746
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:32,170
sure but that they are also different

747
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:35,290
and my my basing method is is to

748
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:37,810
constantly return at least in part to

749
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:39,490
immediate experience and go just have a

750
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:41,700
look you can see they're different I

751
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:44,170
agree with you first let's tackle that

752
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:45,910
word emergence because it keeps coming

753
00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:47,260
up again and again and again sure and

754
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:49,420
that's another one like evolution that

755
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:51,310
I'd say you know it's kind of a pet

756
00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:54,490
peeve term of mine because I love the

757
00:29:59,790 --> 00:29:56,620
way that you're using it in this deep

758
00:30:03,660 --> 00:29:59,800
soulful way that demands we look for the

759
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:03,670
greater meaning in it I do have to pause

760
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:06,250
for a second and say that's not where

761
00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:07,810
science is when they talk about

762
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,660
emergence and when we hear science folks

763
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:12,880
talk about emergent they use it like

764
00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:15,760
science fairy dust that they can

765
00:30:20,250 --> 00:30:18,070
sprinkle on stuff and say oh there's an

766
00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:20,260
emergent property to consciousness but

767
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:22,990
what they really mean is we see

768
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:25,210
sand dunes form and we call that

769
00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:27,550
emergent because we can model it in a

770
00:30:31,530 --> 00:30:29,620
computer and we know it's sand is and we

771
00:30:33,419 --> 00:30:31,540
know what moisture in the air is and we

772
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:33,429
know what wind is and we can model it in

773
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:35,679
our computer and look in emerges and you

774
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:38,320
know what that's what must be happening

775
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:41,830
with consciousness no we have not come

776
00:30:47,130 --> 00:30:45,220
anywhere close to proving that that's

777
00:30:48,510 --> 00:30:47,140
what's happening with consciousness we

778
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:48,520
don't know what's necessary or

779
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:50,320
sufficient to cause consciousness we

780
00:30:55,049 --> 00:30:52,570
don't know when it begins or ends so we

781
00:30:59,940 --> 00:30:55,059
don't know any of that so if there's a

782
00:31:02,490 --> 00:30:59,950
deep soulful explanation for or soulful

783
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:02,500
use of the term emergence in your work

784
00:31:06,570 --> 00:31:04,809
which I think there is great but we have

785
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:06,580
to separate that from what science

786
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:09,250
thinks emergence is well I think the key

787
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:10,809
that's why I call it objective is

788
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:12,910
science which is the mainstream you know

789
00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:14,140
it used to be materialism but

790
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:15,640
materialism has fallen to bits for the

791
00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:17,260
sophoclean but it's subjectivist or

792
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:19,270
physicalist it basically thinks the

793
00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:22,510
object is real not the subject and that

794
00:31:25,650 --> 00:31:24,460
to me you know I've got I'm not not in

795
00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:25,660
the business of defending that in the

796
00:31:29,549 --> 00:31:27,670
slightest on it's utterly wrong and I

797
00:31:31,290 --> 00:31:29,559
think it's taken us down a red herring

798
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:31,300
what it's done is it's been a red

799
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:32,710
herring what it's done it's been very

800
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:35,170
good at studying objects but it's

801
00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:38,050
absolutely useless once it tries to look

802
00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:40,150
at subjects because it doesn't think

803
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:41,980
they really exist it explains the nature

804
00:31:46,919 --> 00:31:43,570
of the soul by going you don't it's not

805
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:46,929
there it's an illusion it's a phantom

806
00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:49,300
well clearly that's not true and what's

807
00:31:52,890 --> 00:31:50,860
happening is he didn't dismissing the

808
00:31:54,750 --> 00:31:52,900
most important thing so all I'm doing is

809
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:54,760
coming along or all I'm doing one of the

810
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:56,170
things I'm doing is coming along and

811
00:32:00,930 --> 00:31:58,210
going look we're having this

812
00:32:02,430 --> 00:32:00,940
conversation in soul in psychic we're

813
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:02,440
having this whole conversation with

814
00:32:07,169 --> 00:32:04,210
concepts which aren't made of matter in

815
00:32:10,169 --> 00:32:07,179
a different realm now somehow that is

816
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:10,179
linked to biology and somehow that's

817
00:32:16,530 --> 00:32:13,360
linked to matter so but clearly the

818
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:16,540
current explanation which is being seen

819
00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:19,300
philosophically as absolutely true I

820
00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:21,070
think by an awful lot of people in in

821
00:32:25,620 --> 00:32:23,740
our culture is absolutely wrong it's

822
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:25,630
just not good enough so I I'm in

823
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:27,610
complete agreement with you and what I'm

824
00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:29,950
trying to do is create a new way what

825
00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:32,500
I'm not trying to shore up mainstream

826
00:32:36,899 --> 00:32:35,230
science with mainstream spirituality at

827
00:32:39,659 --> 00:32:36,909
all I'm trying to suggest an

828
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:39,669
new science with a new spirituality but

829
00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:41,710
one which keeps all the really valuable

830
00:32:46,349 --> 00:32:44,200
stuff that we found because we've got a

831
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:46,359
lot of very valuable stuff in both we

832
00:32:50,879 --> 00:32:48,399
just need a different philosophy so we

833
00:32:54,989 --> 00:32:50,889
understand what we know in a different

834
00:32:56,369 --> 00:32:54,999
context we can keep what we know but we

835
00:32:59,129 --> 00:32:56,379
need it in a different context because

836
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:59,139
the context is not working for either I

837
00:33:02,759 --> 00:32:59,820
don't think

838
00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:02,769
Jim you have a lot of creative and

839
00:33:09,749 --> 00:33:06,580
interesting ideas about the after death

840
00:33:12,749 --> 00:33:09,759
aspect of our existence of consciousness

841
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:12,759
if you will so lay those out and tell us

842
00:33:15,930 --> 00:33:14,320
where you came up with some of that

843
00:33:17,789 --> 00:33:15,940
because I think some folks will will

844
00:33:19,499 --> 00:33:17,799
take it in and will just be drawn to

845
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:19,509
another folks will be wait a minute on

846
00:33:24,509 --> 00:33:22,450
what authority is he is he saying this

847
00:33:26,909 --> 00:33:24,519
stuff of what's happening after death

848
00:33:28,169 --> 00:33:26,919
yeah absolutely and just to be clear

849
00:33:29,999 --> 00:33:28,179
house I'm not saying this on any

850
00:33:33,690 --> 00:33:30,009
authority at all in any direction you

851
00:33:35,849 --> 00:33:33,700
know I say this as a explore of life who

852
00:33:37,889 --> 00:33:35,859
is has some insights and is often

853
00:33:39,180 --> 00:33:37,899
confused and is doing its best to create

854
00:33:40,889 --> 00:33:39,190
the best narrative and the most

855
00:33:42,629 --> 00:33:40,899
expansive narrative and to also

856
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:42,639
experience life in the deepest way that

857
00:33:47,849 --> 00:33:44,289
I can and share it with others that's

858
00:33:48,989 --> 00:33:47,859
that's great so in that spirit I'm very

859
00:33:50,339 --> 00:33:48,999
concerned with death I've worked with

860
00:33:51,779 --> 00:33:50,349
people who are dying a lot of people I

861
00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:51,789
know have died I've nurtured a lot of

862
00:33:54,899 --> 00:33:52,960
people through death including a lot of

863
00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:54,909
people close to me and it's always feels

864
00:33:57,749 --> 00:33:55,960
to me something really important's

865
00:33:59,969 --> 00:33:57,759
happening I've had experiences of people

866
00:34:01,379 --> 00:33:59,979
after death I've met an awful lot of

867
00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:01,389
people have had near-death experiences

868
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:03,940
and I can't just dismiss all of that so

869
00:34:08,879 --> 00:34:07,090
for me as an individual the question is

870
00:34:10,379 --> 00:34:08,889
not do we survive death it's how the

871
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:10,389
hell can I explain the fact that we do

872
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:13,690
and now I know a lot of people aren't in

873
00:34:18,409 --> 00:34:15,690
that situation I respect them completely

874
00:34:20,669 --> 00:34:18,419
but for me it's like it's more like that

875
00:34:23,579 --> 00:34:20,679
how can I understand this how can this

876
00:34:25,470 --> 00:34:23,589
be right and the way that I framed it

877
00:34:27,809 --> 00:34:25,480
and is to talk about the evolution of

878
00:34:29,549 --> 00:34:27,819
this other level you know when I talked

879
00:34:31,260 --> 00:34:29,559
earlier about we exist as subjects and

880
00:34:33,839 --> 00:34:31,270
objects one of the things which I think

881
00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:33,849
is important is that one of the things

882
00:34:37,230 --> 00:34:35,500
that physics has come around to is that

883
00:34:38,819 --> 00:34:37,240
nothing exists in the in the

884
00:34:40,589 --> 00:34:38,829
three-dimensional solid way that we

885
00:34:41,819 --> 00:34:40,599
think it does and one of the ways that

886
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:41,829
we can understand it therefore is

887
00:34:45,839 --> 00:34:43,599
everything is a type of information it's

888
00:34:47,730 --> 00:34:45,849
pretty vague but it's enough which means

889
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:47,740
that we can see information is existing

890
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:49,510
on the physical biological and soul

891
00:34:53,580 --> 00:34:50,350
level

892
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:53,590
where your understanding the meaning of

893
00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:55,630
these words is different to information

894
00:35:01,020 --> 00:34:58,150
on the biological or physical levels so

895
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:01,030
somehow we can understand well let me

896
00:35:04,770 --> 00:35:02,710
try this analogy it's a bit it's a bit

897
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:04,780
very quick way of trying to say what I'm

898
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:07,450
exploring but as a simple analogy maybe

899
00:35:14,010 --> 00:35:12,610
it helps for me when I wrote my book he

900
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:14,020
looked like all that information was

901
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:15,730
just on my computer and if I was gonna

902
00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:17,470
if I know if I dropped my computer or

903
00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:20,020
spilt coffee on it I'd lose my book it

904
00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:23,380
would die but actually all the

905
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:25,750
information that in made up my book was

906
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:27,930
actually going straight to the cloud

907
00:35:33,630 --> 00:35:32,050
which meant that if my computer died the

908
00:35:34,770 --> 00:35:33,640
information was still all there on a

909
00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:34,780
completely different level of

910
00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:37,180
information and could be accessed in a

911
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:40,630
different way in a kind of comparable

912
00:35:46,050 --> 00:35:44,410
way as a simple analogy something like

913
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:46,060
that is what I'm suggesting is that the

914
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:47,650
information has a right the risen on a

915
00:35:52,380 --> 00:35:50,320
level which is non-material which is

916
00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:52,390
like the cloud compared to just being

917
00:35:56,430 --> 00:35:54,760
locally contained within my body which

918
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:56,440
is where it's linking in some way with

919
00:35:59,850 --> 00:35:57,850
the brain hole or the questions about

920
00:36:01,500 --> 00:35:59,860
what that means but leave those aside

921
00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:01,510
for a moment so then what I'm suggesting

922
00:36:05,850 --> 00:36:03,670
is that with the arising of soul with

923
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:05,860
that other dimension being the dimension

924
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:09,040
of images has arisen a realm which we

925
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:11,410
can go into at least for a while after

926
00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:13,540
death which is why I think if you listen

927
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:15,400
to people's near-death experiences they

928
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:17,470
sound like dreams why because they are

929
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,200
but they're not unreal they're real

930
00:36:24,330 --> 00:36:22,000
dreams they're real on that level

931
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:24,340
they're real on actually a more emergent

932
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:26,710
level which is a level in which we can

933
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:29,710
experience his images images that we've

934
00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:31,810
gained from our sensual experience take

935
00:36:36,690 --> 00:36:34,180
on a life of their own in Soul again we

936
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:36,700
experience that all the time now when we

937
00:36:41,370 --> 00:36:39,850
sleep we can just go deeper into it so

938
00:36:43,740 --> 00:36:41,380
what I'm suggesting is that heaven if

939
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:43,750
you like in adverted commerce has itself

940
00:36:48,110 --> 00:36:46,090
evolved and one of the things which I

941
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:48,120
noticed when I wrote a book on people's

942
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:51,010
ideas about the afterlife years and

943
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:53,050
years ago was you can see this kind of

944
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:55,510
evolution of it whereby it starts as

945
00:36:59,790 --> 00:36:56,800
something quite you know shades

946
00:37:01,410 --> 00:36:59,800
something nebulous like the Greeks which

947
00:37:04,049 --> 00:37:01,420
suggests that this what I call the

948
00:37:06,749 --> 00:37:04,059
imagined or the dimension of images is

949
00:37:09,019 --> 00:37:06,759
just coming into form and then it starts

950
00:37:10,439 --> 00:37:09,029
becoming a reflection of an idealized

951
00:37:13,289 --> 00:37:10,449
life

952
00:37:14,910 --> 00:37:13,299
the drinking halls of Valhalla or the

953
00:37:16,859 --> 00:37:14,920
happy hunting grounds that kind of image

954
00:37:18,209 --> 00:37:16,869
and then you start getting with the big

955
00:37:20,789 --> 00:37:18,219
religions coming in and then it's

956
00:37:23,579 --> 00:37:20,799
populated by thousands of buddhas or

957
00:37:28,019 --> 00:37:23,589
saints and choirs and and now you get

958
00:37:28,799 --> 00:37:28,029
these huge vistas incredible experiences

959
00:37:30,959 --> 00:37:28,809
that people have in near-death

960
00:37:34,799 --> 00:37:30,969
experiences which are multicultural now

961
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:34,809
of course and and in full of give vast

962
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:36,910
cities and all sorts so what I'm

963
00:37:43,799 --> 00:37:40,180
suggesting is hey this other realm is

964
00:37:45,329 --> 00:37:43,809
itself evolving and what we're doing now

965
00:37:47,429 --> 00:37:45,339
is moving between these realms

966
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:47,439
that's what spirituality has been saying

967
00:37:51,209 --> 00:37:49,150
for a long time it's just that it

968
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:51,219
somehow saw that other realm as

969
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:53,650
pre-existent because it had no idea

970
00:37:57,839 --> 00:37:55,359
about evolution now we understand

971
00:38:00,839 --> 00:37:57,849
evolution here's an interesting thing it

972
00:38:02,819 --> 00:38:00,849
itself has evolved you know Tim

973
00:38:07,319 --> 00:38:02,829
wonderful things that keeps gnawing at

974
00:38:09,809 --> 00:38:07,329
me is how do you factor in time in this

975
00:38:12,689 --> 00:38:09,819
you know I've spoken with a couple of

976
00:38:14,669 --> 00:38:12,699
folks who have mediumistic talents

977
00:38:16,799 --> 00:38:14,679
who've told me first thing you tell me

978
00:38:20,459 --> 00:38:16,809
is you know our whole conception of time

979
00:38:23,339 --> 00:38:20,469
is way off and this idea of this life

980
00:38:25,799 --> 00:38:23,349
next life past life is just blown away

981
00:38:27,419 --> 00:38:25,809
it's not the way it is this is what

982
00:38:31,410 --> 00:38:27,429
they're telling me we are constantly

983
00:38:33,419 --> 00:38:31,420
being reincarnated multiple-- into

984
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:33,429
multiple lives that we're living in this

985
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:35,890
idea of how we experience it which is

986
00:38:42,929 --> 00:38:39,910
very linear is not at all what's really

987
00:38:44,969 --> 00:38:42,939
going on I mean how does that factor in

988
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:44,979
I don't relate to that at all I mean

989
00:38:48,449 --> 00:38:46,569
I've heard it said of course I live in

990
00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:48,459
Glastonbury which is a center for all

991
00:38:54,479 --> 00:38:52,420
sorts of spiritual ideas and and and you

992
00:38:55,919 --> 00:38:54,489
know and I respect people who have their

993
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:55,929
experience or whatever but also I'm

994
00:38:59,849 --> 00:38:57,910
looking at this is basic science science

995
00:39:01,679 --> 00:38:59,859
would not would not like this linear

996
00:39:03,809 --> 00:39:01,689
time thing at all they said science is

997
00:39:05,729 --> 00:39:03,819
the same I mean it is very popular in

998
00:39:07,410 --> 00:39:05,739
both science and spirituality to say

999
00:39:09,870 --> 00:39:07,420
that time is an illusion and I think

1000
00:39:11,279 --> 00:39:09,880
both are wrong I myself have said it

1001
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:11,289
many times you'll probably find it in my

1002
00:39:16,529 --> 00:39:13,689
books but having meditated on it long

1003
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:16,539
and hard right now I'm here wanting to

1004
00:39:19,470 --> 00:39:17,710
say I think that's wrong

1005
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:19,480
and here's why because when I look at

1006
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:21,910
the moment when I look at reality as it

1007
00:39:27,540 --> 00:39:24,640
actually presents itself to me the thing

1008
00:39:29,609 --> 00:39:27,550
I can't dispute because it's now I see

1009
00:39:31,710 --> 00:39:29,619
time I see a flow of changing

1010
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:31,720
experiences so rather than being

1011
00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:33,130
illusion it feels like we should start

1012
00:39:37,380 --> 00:39:35,800
with the premise that reality is time we

1013
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:37,390
just need to re understand what time is

1014
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:40,480
so that rather than seeing things as

1015
00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:42,910
things some sort of slice called the

1016
00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:44,560
moment we see that everything is a

1017
00:39:49,020 --> 00:39:46,420
processing time everything is what I

1018
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:49,030
call a time stream me you the desk in

1019
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:51,130
front of me the computer everything the

1020
00:39:54,990 --> 00:39:52,530
plants I'm looking at the window

1021
00:39:58,260 --> 00:39:55,000
everything actually is a process and

1022
00:39:59,730 --> 00:39:58,270
that time is fundamental and then I want

1023
00:40:02,460 --> 00:39:59,740
to make a big suggestion about the

1024
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:02,470
nature of time which is I want to say

1025
00:40:06,690 --> 00:40:04,690
we've got the wrong analogy we say that

1026
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:06,700
time passes most the time we don't even

1027
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:10,210
notice it's an analogy but it is what I

1028
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:11,890
want to suggest is a better analogy

1029
00:40:17,310 --> 00:40:14,730
which is that time accumulates so

1030
00:40:18,180 --> 00:40:17,320
there's more pass now than there was

1031
00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:18,190
when we started this conversation

1032
00:40:24,450 --> 00:40:21,420
there's more pass now than when we both

1033
00:40:26,339 --> 00:40:24,460
you invited me when we both grew up when

1034
00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:26,349
we both learn to speak with more time

1035
00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:28,150
now than when the Big Bang happened when

1036
00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:30,190
human beings first evolves all of that

1037
00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:32,820
and I want to suggest that the past

1038
00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:37,150
hasn't gone anywhere that the past is in

1039
00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:41,740
implicit in the present the the implicit

1040
00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:43,750
in this moment is everything that's ever

1041
00:40:48,089 --> 00:40:46,060
happened before and if it wasn't it

1042
00:40:51,630 --> 00:40:48,099
wouldn't be this moment implicit is you

1043
00:40:53,070 --> 00:40:51,640
and me first talking implicit is you

1044
00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:53,080
know us learning language like I said

1045
00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:55,390
implicit is everything everything

1046
00:40:58,140 --> 00:40:56,740
everything that you have been and

1047
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:58,150
everything that I've been everything

1048
00:41:02,579 --> 00:41:00,640
that's happened is implicit in this

1049
00:41:04,050 --> 00:41:02,589
moment which enables us to do history

1050
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:04,060
and which enables us to have you even

1051
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:05,050
have this conversation

1052
00:41:10,290 --> 00:41:07,630
everything is requires that so that

1053
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:10,300
what's come into form has come into form

1054
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:12,010
forever because we can re understand it

1055
00:41:16,290 --> 00:41:13,830
put in new context see in a new light

1056
00:41:18,990 --> 00:41:16,300
but this conversation has happened now

1057
00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:19,000
and it will have always happened I will

1058
00:41:22,859 --> 00:41:20,950
have said that what I meant to by that

1059
00:41:25,970 --> 00:41:22,869
can be questioned by Baba but it has

1060
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:25,980
happened so that what this moment is is

1061
00:41:30,910 --> 00:41:29,290
the meeting of everything that has

1062
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:30,920
happened and everything that

1063
00:41:36,579 --> 00:41:33,730
would happen the past and the possible

1064
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:36,589
everything which is fixed and everything

1065
00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:38,540
which is unfixed goes this idea is a

1066
00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:39,980
very ancient one actually goes back to

1067
00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:41,780
Pythagoras who talked about the meeting

1068
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:44,420
of the limited and the limitless the

1069
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:46,609
past and the possible and that what's

1070
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:50,000
happening is that time is expanding so

1071
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:52,970
information is accumulating which is

1072
00:41:57,130 --> 00:41:54,410
defined and because the past is

1073
00:41:58,839 --> 00:41:57,140
constantly expanding there's a tendency

1074
00:42:01,329 --> 00:41:58,849
towards evolution and greater and

1075
00:42:03,460 --> 00:42:01,339
greater emergence so that more and more

1076
00:42:05,859 --> 00:42:03,470
emergent possibilities are arising

1077
00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:05,869
through the evolutionary process as the

1078
00:42:10,299 --> 00:42:08,540
past accumulates so that the universe

1079
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:10,309
far from time being an illusion the

1080
00:42:14,319 --> 00:42:12,710
universe is made of the past that's what

1081
00:42:17,289 --> 00:42:14,329
it's made of that's what you and I are

1082
00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:17,299
made of right now everything I've been

1083
00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:18,710
is meeting everything that you've been

1084
00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:21,500
that's what we are ok Tim what about

1085
00:42:25,539 --> 00:42:23,900
what parapsychology has to say about

1086
00:42:28,030 --> 00:42:25,549
that because they've looked at that

1087
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:28,040
right and in the book in the book soul

1088
00:42:32,410 --> 00:42:30,710
story you do touch on psychic abilities

1089
00:42:34,470 --> 00:42:32,420
a little bit and you kind of just a

1090
00:42:36,339 --> 00:42:34,480
little tiny bit dabble into that

1091
00:42:38,730 --> 00:42:36,349
parapsychology has tried to study this

1092
00:42:41,260 --> 00:42:38,740
in the lab because so many of us

1093
00:42:43,390 --> 00:42:41,270
experienced like you said very early on

1094
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:43,400
these experiences of these little time

1095
00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:44,660
shifts that we have these

1096
00:42:49,780 --> 00:42:47,030
synchronicities these looking ahead and

1097
00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:49,790
looking back behind in this timeline

1098
00:42:55,539 --> 00:42:52,369
that we're in and lo and behold when

1099
00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:55,549
they put it in the lab they say wow you

1100
00:42:59,819 --> 00:42:58,160
know there is this precognitive effect

1101
00:43:02,740 --> 00:42:59,829
that's going on there is this

1102
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:02,750
presentiment effect that our biology is

1103
00:43:07,930 --> 00:43:05,540
even aware of a shift in this timeframe

1104
00:43:09,819 --> 00:43:07,940
doesn't that butt up against what you're

1105
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:09,829
saying no I don't think so and again

1106
00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:11,690
it's because we need to understand the

1107
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:13,849
nature of soul what I call narrativity

1108
00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:16,130
you know I've needed I've made up a lot

1109
00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:17,660
of words as you can you will know have

1110
00:43:20,260 --> 00:43:18,950
you read the book but and I've done that

1111
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:20,270
because there's that there's there's

1112
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:22,130
nothing through the concept doesn't have

1113
00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:24,650
a word so what I wanted is to say look

1114
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:27,470
what defines this level of soul that

1115
00:43:32,020 --> 00:43:28,910
we're experiencing well it's it's

1116
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:32,030
concepts its ideas its memories but

1117
00:43:37,089 --> 00:43:34,730
above all its story we eat it's a

1118
00:43:40,030 --> 00:43:37,099
narrative it's where you know I am above

1119
00:43:42,130 --> 00:43:40,040
all a story I I am some Tim's journey

1120
00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:42,140
through life and when I meet other

1121
00:43:44,750 --> 00:43:43,880
people I go how's your story and they

1122
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:44,760
say I home like

1123
00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:46,410
this how's your story because that's how

1124
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:48,540
we experience ourselves now the

1125
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:50,130
traditional wisdom in certainly in

1126
00:43:54,740 --> 00:43:52,080
science is oh well that's a kind of a

1127
00:43:57,380 --> 00:43:54,750
mental by-product it's nothing whereas

1128
00:44:00,830 --> 00:43:57,390
what I'm saying is no evolution has led

1129
00:44:02,270 --> 00:44:00,840
to the evolution of story which is its

1130
00:44:04,220 --> 00:44:02,280
own level a bit like in a computer game

1131
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:04,230
you can have the ones and zeros which

1132
00:44:07,310 --> 00:44:05,550
are pretty fascinating and then you've

1133
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:07,320
got the computer system which is like

1134
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:08,610
the biological level and that's

1135
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:10,260
interesting but really it's all about

1136
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:12,510
getting to the story and that's what

1137
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:14,370
it's been about is playing on the level

1138
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:15,690
of story and that's where we're playing

1139
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:16,290
right now

1140
00:44:19,220 --> 00:44:17,850
playing on the levels of story so what

1141
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:19,230
I'm saying is that that level of story

1142
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:22,110
is not a passive thing it's interacting

1143
00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:24,390
all the time so just as on the level of

1144
00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:26,670
biology or physics I can predict the

1145
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:28,830
future I'm not always right but I can

1146
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:30,270
predict the future which is how we can

1147
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:32,610
make this Internet work because you know

1148
00:44:35,180 --> 00:44:34,050
people have been able to predict that if

1149
00:44:37,310 --> 00:44:35,190
you do this and this and this with

1150
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:37,320
physical matter it behaves in these ways

1151
00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:39,810
and in the same way we have the facility

1152
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:41,220
to see oh this is where the story's

1153
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:44,370
going and and that add but it doesn't

1154
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:46,290
mean it's definitely fixed it just means

1155
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:48,090
that's the way the story is going which

1156
00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:50,610
is why sometimes it's not right but but

1157
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:52,920
I think we can start to explore how all

1158
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:55,260
of those experiences the fact that we

1159
00:44:59,240 --> 00:44:57,900
connect non-locally the fact that you

1160
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:59,250
know that I just met an old friend of

1161
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:00,780
mine while I was writing the book and

1162
00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:03,270
and I've been contacted by a mutual old

1163
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:05,550
friend and they just knew I don't know

1164
00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:06,780
how they knew they knew their name they

1165
00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:07,950
just went oh you've been contact I said

1166
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,720
all of that strange mysterious stuff

1167
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:12,000
which we all experienced when all of us

1168
00:45:14,090 --> 00:45:13,650
maybe but I certainly do and I'm sure

1169
00:45:16,820 --> 00:45:14,100
you do

1170
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:16,830
the that that gives us a vehicle bye-bye

1171
00:45:21,860 --> 00:45:18,900
we can just start going on this is how

1172
00:45:23,060 --> 00:45:21,870
this can fit into this other world this

1173
00:45:25,910 --> 00:45:23,070
is how they can fit together

1174
00:45:28,820 --> 00:45:25,920
as different levels of emergence in one

1175
00:45:30,940 --> 00:45:28,830
spectrum of experience all of which is

1176
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:30,950
code is operating at the same time and

1177
00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:33,480
interacting and not any one level of

1178
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:37,260
which is absolute all is relative to

1179
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:39,570
each other okay we spend a good deal of

1180
00:45:45,710 --> 00:45:41,970
time talking about kind of the science

1181
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:45,720
side of this ambiguity that you're

1182
00:45:51,830 --> 00:45:48,690
trying to kind of wrestle and and merge

1183
00:45:54,530 --> 00:45:51,840
and and find resolution for the other

1184
00:45:57,290 --> 00:45:54,540
side of course is the spirituality side

1185
00:45:58,579 --> 00:45:57,300
you say spirituality very early on in

1186
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:58,589
the book you say spirit

1187
00:46:04,549 --> 00:46:01,920
spirituality is outdated pre rational

1188
00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:04,559
and that this religious mindset is

1189
00:46:10,339 --> 00:46:07,319
something that we cannot tolerate most

1190
00:46:12,979 --> 00:46:10,349
of us in this scientific world that we

1191
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:12,989
live in at the same time when it's all

1192
00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:15,690
said and done can we step back and say

1193
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:17,430
hey wait a minute maybe these wisdom

1194
00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:20,700
traditions looking at the whole have

1195
00:46:26,059 --> 00:46:23,940
been pretty darn close to the big answer

1196
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:26,069
the same answer that you come to that it

1197
00:46:32,029 --> 00:46:28,410
is all about love it's about connection

1198
00:46:35,180 --> 00:46:32,039
it's about this deep truth that we share

1199
00:46:38,029 --> 00:46:35,190
with one another is religion are we

1200
00:46:40,819 --> 00:46:38,039
being a little bit too harsh are you

1201
00:46:42,380 --> 00:46:40,829
being a little bit too harsh on religion

1202
00:46:46,759 --> 00:46:42,390
in terms of it coming to the right

1203
00:46:48,170 --> 00:46:46,769
answer I possibly I mean I one's always

1204
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:48,180
more critical of the things you're

1205
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:49,710
involved in personally probably and I'm

1206
00:46:52,609 --> 00:46:51,210
much more ready to criticize

1207
00:46:54,289 --> 00:46:52,619
spirituality because I know it so well

1208
00:46:57,319 --> 00:46:54,299
and I feel I'm criticizing it from the

1209
00:46:58,940 --> 00:46:57,329
inside and with and with affection you

1210
00:47:02,920 --> 00:46:58,950
know for me it's like what I want to see

1211
00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:02,930
is a form of spirituality which is

1212
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:05,640
all-encompassing so I want that you know

1213
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:07,650
nothing is more important to me than the

1214
00:47:12,469 --> 00:47:10,410
deep center of Awakening and oneness and

1215
00:47:14,450 --> 00:47:12,479
above all love that that's the most

1216
00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:14,460
important thing and but I also want it

1217
00:47:19,039 --> 00:47:17,190
to be able to deal with questions in a

1218
00:47:21,170 --> 00:47:19,049
rational rather than pre rational way

1219
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:21,180
now you know if people don't that's fine

1220
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:24,450
that's up to them but I need to and I

1221
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:25,890
therefore and I want to see if it's

1222
00:47:30,339 --> 00:47:28,079
possible and I believe it is I believe

1223
00:47:33,709 --> 00:47:30,349
that you we don't have to dismiss

1224
00:47:36,650 --> 00:47:33,719
rationality in order to devote ourselves

1225
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:36,660
to love or dismiss rationality in order

1226
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:38,729
to believe in life after death I think

1227
00:47:43,519 --> 00:47:40,710
that we can hold we can we can we can

1228
00:47:45,739 --> 00:47:43,529
have a robust intellectual defense of

1229
00:47:47,989 --> 00:47:45,749
these things which we intuitively know

1230
00:47:51,140 --> 00:47:47,999
now I hear you saying that but do you

1231
00:47:53,630 --> 00:47:51,150
think rationally oriented people who are

1232
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:53,640
looking for that view of life that

1233
00:47:59,089 --> 00:47:56,089
worldview are going to find comfort in

1234
00:48:01,160 --> 00:47:59,099
especially the last two thirds or maybe

1235
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:01,170
three quarters of the book I love that

1236
00:48:04,819 --> 00:48:02,609
stuff I love the stuff you're talking

1237
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:04,829
about and it resonates to me but I kept

1238
00:48:11,509 --> 00:48:08,460
thinking I go who is who is the rational

1239
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:11,519
minded kind of logical person who's

1240
00:48:13,820 --> 00:48:12,210
gonna

1241
00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:13,830
the truth is Alex I'm probably writing

1242
00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:15,270
for a very small group of people who are

1243
00:48:18,980 --> 00:48:17,190
like me that's the honest truth

1244
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:18,990
I'd like to think that I could reach all

1245
00:48:22,490 --> 00:48:20,609
of these extremes of people who are in a

1246
00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:22,500
religious mindset and I'd love to think

1247
00:48:27,589 --> 00:48:25,260
I could reach hard-nosed materialists

1248
00:48:29,390 --> 00:48:27,599
but the and a few I probably will but

1249
00:48:31,460 --> 00:48:29,400
overall really I'm writing for people

1250
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:31,470
like me which is people who want to keep

1251
00:48:35,450 --> 00:48:33,570
their mind as well as their heart but

1252
00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:35,460
won't sacrifice their heart for the mind

1253
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:37,950
that want both because they are both and

1254
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:41,130
so for me and and and part of that is

1255
00:48:44,359 --> 00:48:42,690
then to make the questions it's likely

1256
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:44,369
if you know the whole where the book

1257
00:48:48,940 --> 00:48:47,040
ends up is really a theology where the

1258
00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:48,950
book ends up is about God seeing

1259
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:51,960
divinity in a new way so you couldn't

1260
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:53,690
get farther away from the place where

1261
00:48:57,740 --> 00:48:56,010
Objectivists want to start and I'm aware

1262
00:48:58,970 --> 00:48:57,750
of that and I'm aware that you know I'm

1263
00:49:01,220 --> 00:48:58,980
going to be losing more and more with

1264
00:49:03,410 --> 00:49:01,230
each chapter potentially but I have but

1265
00:49:05,089 --> 00:49:03,420
again what I'm articulating really is

1266
00:49:07,220 --> 00:49:05,099
primarily for myself and people like me

1267
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:07,230
it's like I can't that's what I have to

1268
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:08,609
speak to I have to speak to my

1269
00:49:14,780 --> 00:49:11,730
experience but also it means I want to

1270
00:49:16,970 --> 00:49:14,790
be critical of the places that I've been

1271
00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:16,980
myself like for instance you mentioned

1272
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:20,790
it's a good example in the if you have

1273
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:23,730
an intuition towards God for one of a

1274
00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:25,410
better word I'm using it Supreme Being

1275
00:49:29,180 --> 00:49:27,150
or something they've got a being of love

1276
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:29,190
which I do I have had it since a kid

1277
00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:31,770
it's hugely powerful experience of

1278
00:49:37,730 --> 00:49:34,830
relating to something bigger and and and

1279
00:49:40,070 --> 00:49:37,740
just so good it's very hard to square

1280
00:49:41,380 --> 00:49:40,080
that with the traditional problem that

1281
00:49:43,849 --> 00:49:41,390
philosophers call the problem of evil

1282
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:43,859
which is how come the world in there if

1283
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:45,150
God's at the beginning of time and he's

1284
00:49:49,550 --> 00:49:47,040
created this or it's created this how

1285
00:49:51,140 --> 00:49:49,560
come it's so horrible and it's really

1286
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:51,150
really if you know when you see the

1287
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:52,500
suffering when you actually see the

1288
00:49:55,550 --> 00:49:54,150
suffering it's pretty hard to get your

1289
00:49:58,880 --> 00:49:55,560
head around that I don't think you can

1290
00:50:00,349 --> 00:49:58,890
and and also what I call the problem of

1291
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,359
absurdity which you mentioned with the

1292
00:50:04,460 --> 00:50:02,400
dinosaurs okay if God's at the beginning

1293
00:50:08,030 --> 00:50:04,470
and he's and he wants this to you know

1294
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,040
us to be souls exploring our devotional

1295
00:50:13,370 --> 00:50:11,040
relationship with him or it what the

1296
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:13,380
hell is 160 million years of dinosaurs

1297
00:50:18,650 --> 00:50:16,260
about that's just crazy it's absurd so

1298
00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:18,660
for me again it's been like well is

1299
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:20,940
there a way which I can understand this

1300
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:23,130
experience I have of relating to

1301
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:24,599
something greater than me that is all

1302
00:50:27,060 --> 00:50:25,090
good

1303
00:50:29,550 --> 00:50:27,070
which doesn't fall into those problems

1304
00:50:32,730 --> 00:50:29,560
and for me that the place where the

1305
00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:32,740
whole book leads is the idea that

1306
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:34,540
there's another level of emergence

1307
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:37,110
happening which is the emergence of

1308
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:40,600
spirits in a transcendent transcendent

1309
00:50:44,730 --> 00:50:43,090
form and the that God did you put it to

1310
00:50:46,170 --> 00:50:44,740
put it very blindly you know in a way

1311
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:46,180
that might sound a bit silly but

1312
00:50:49,770 --> 00:50:48,910
hopefully it isn't there which is to say

1313
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:49,780
rather than putting God at the beginning

1314
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:52,000
put God's at the end that God is not

1315
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:55,090
where things start but that's who that

1316
00:51:00,300 --> 00:50:56,650
transcendent spirit is where things are

1317
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,310
going that the deepest most emergent

1318
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:02,800
levels of reality are coming last it

1319
00:51:07,170 --> 00:51:04,690
didn't start with soul ended with soul

1320
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:07,180
this started with hydrogen when it came

1321
00:51:10,020 --> 00:51:08,770
a long way from hydrogen to this

1322
00:51:13,070 --> 00:51:10,030
experience we are having now of

1323
00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:13,080
intelligence and soul and love and and

1324
00:51:17,610 --> 00:51:15,480
that the deepest things are coming last

1325
00:51:21,150 --> 00:51:17,620
because they need the build up of all

1326
00:51:23,940 --> 00:51:21,160
that past to carry them and that the the

1327
00:51:26,010 --> 00:51:23,950
supreme the transcendent being that big

1328
00:51:28,530 --> 00:51:26,020
consciousness which everything is being

1329
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:28,540
held in isn't at the beginning it's at

1330
00:51:34,980 --> 00:51:32,800
the end it's arising now and and as we

1331
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:34,990
awake so it is coming into form and

1332
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:37,980
that's a very different way of seeing

1333
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:40,930
what spirituality is from an

1334
00:51:44,610 --> 00:51:43,210
evolutionary current rather than for

1335
00:51:49,220 --> 00:51:44,620
something which which can't cope with

1336
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:49,230
them well it is a very novel and

1337
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,910
intellectually invigorating idea the

1338
00:51:55,980 --> 00:51:54,160
whole book is is like that I mean you're

1339
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:55,990
you're it's it's challenging it's

1340
00:51:59,930 --> 00:51:58,090
wonderful to work through it's it's like

1341
00:52:03,090 --> 00:51:59,940
I said it's beautifully presented and

1342
00:52:05,730 --> 00:52:03,100
you're to be congratulated Tim I mean

1343
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:05,740
soul story evolution of the purpose of

1344
00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:08,650
life our guest has been Tim Freak Tim

1345
00:52:14,370 --> 00:52:11,260
what have we what have we left out here

1346
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:14,380
that people would need to know about the

1347
00:52:19,650 --> 00:52:17,410
book and about it about ten and tell for

1348
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:19,660
a minute about the other things that you

1349
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:21,970
do and how you engage with people in

1350
00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:24,760
other ways you thank you I guess the bit

1351
00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:26,320
that's been we've covered a lot which I

1352
00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:27,640
knew we were because I knew you asked

1353
00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:28,960
some great questions and bring up some

1354
00:52:32,940 --> 00:52:31,180
real challenging issues which has been a

1355
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:32,950
real pleasure to engage with I have to

1356
00:52:37,110 --> 00:52:35,710
say and I think the thing which has been

1357
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:37,120
missed out which kind of touched in a

1358
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:37,930
bit in the end which

1359
00:52:42,930 --> 00:52:41,200
that for me my life is actually centered

1360
00:52:44,490 --> 00:52:42,940
around the idea of Awakening is around

1361
00:52:46,109 --> 00:52:44,500
the experience of awakening what I call

1362
00:52:49,010 --> 00:52:46,119
being deep awake that's what most of my

1363
00:52:51,450 --> 00:52:49,020
books are about this is a philosophical

1364
00:52:54,990 --> 00:52:51,460
underpinning of that and one of the

1365
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:55,000
ideas that I'm exploring is that the

1366
00:52:58,589 --> 00:52:56,650
cutting edge of the leading edge of

1367
00:53:00,839 --> 00:52:58,599
evolution right now is spiritual

1368
00:53:03,390 --> 00:53:00,849
awakening is this spirit waking up to

1369
00:53:05,660 --> 00:53:03,400
itself the great potentiality from which

1370
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:05,670
everything has come is arising

1371
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:08,079
consciously through us when we enter

1372
00:53:12,420 --> 00:53:10,390
these deep states and bringing the

1373
00:53:14,069 --> 00:53:12,430
transcendent spirit God if you will if

1374
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:14,079
that's not too difficult a word is

1375
00:53:17,609 --> 00:53:16,210
arising through that so most of what I

1376
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:17,619
do is help people experience the deep

1377
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:20,250
awake state I saw I have this huge

1378
00:53:24,839 --> 00:53:22,480
privilege of traveling around the world

1379
00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:24,849
wherever I'm invited and taking people

1380
00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:27,040
directly into the deep work state so

1381
00:53:31,170 --> 00:53:29,980
that you can actually feel that love you

1382
00:53:32,370 --> 00:53:31,180
know when we were talking earlier and

1383
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:32,380
you were saying you know that the great

1384
00:53:37,049 --> 00:53:33,520
message in all these spiritual

1385
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:37,059
traditions love oneness you know that

1386
00:53:40,290 --> 00:53:38,530
and the key with that is it's not just

1387
00:53:43,260 --> 00:53:40,300
an idea it's a direct experience and

1388
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:43,270
when you have it you know you just know

1389
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:45,790
something so deep it's before words so

1390
00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:48,640
what I do at my deep awakenings is I

1391
00:53:54,270 --> 00:53:52,390
share that experience and I feel very

1392
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:54,280
privileged because you know wherever I

1393
00:53:58,789 --> 00:53:56,559
go it feels like you know just about

1394
00:54:01,559 --> 00:53:58,799
everyone can experience it very quickly

1395
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:01,569
and I think it's part of our collective

1396
00:54:06,089 --> 00:54:03,730
evolution that there's now possible but

1397
00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:06,099
sure is sure is you know it happens

1398
00:54:10,770 --> 00:54:09,190
without any doubt whatsoever so my if

1399
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:10,780
people are interested in both our

1400
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:12,880
philosophy and the awakening there's

1401
00:54:17,069 --> 00:54:15,040
loads of stuff which they can have on my

1402
00:54:20,099 --> 00:54:17,079
website where there's meditations I lead

1403
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:20,109
there's videos and audios and they can

1404
00:54:23,099 --> 00:54:21,490
they can see about the events that I'm

1405
00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:23,109
running and sign up for the newsletter

1406
00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:24,790
so that they can hear I'm coming to

1407
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:27,400
their country or their area I'm

1408
00:54:31,020 --> 00:54:28,569
certainly going to be coming to the

1409
00:54:33,569 --> 00:54:31,030
States twice this year but they're not

1410
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:33,579
announced yet they would hear those and

1411
00:54:38,250 --> 00:54:36,640
and take part in inquiry and so for me

1412
00:54:40,260 --> 00:54:38,260
that it's about developing a new

1413
00:54:42,660 --> 00:54:40,270
approach to awakening for the 21st

1414
00:54:44,609 --> 00:54:42,670
century which isn't guru based isn't

1415
00:54:47,130 --> 00:54:44,619
based on some absolute authority isn't

1416
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:47,140
me telling people how it is but which is

1417
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:50,210
a community of life explorers

1418
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:51,920
looking for the deepest experience and

1419
00:54:56,530 --> 00:54:54,530
the deepest understanding of what life

1420
00:54:59,560 --> 00:54:56,540
is so that we can make the most of this

1421
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:59,570
amazing journey we're on excellent

1422
00:55:04,210 --> 00:55:01,520
that's a good interesting context to put

1423
00:55:06,820 --> 00:55:04,220
it in your you're walking the walk and

1424
00:55:08,829 --> 00:55:06,830
kind of you're experiencing thinning

1425
00:55:11,829 --> 00:55:08,839
this book you attempt to kind of talk

1426
00:55:13,570 --> 00:55:11,839
the talks oh that's okay Tim it's been

1427
00:55:15,540 --> 00:55:13,580
great great having you on and I do

1428
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:15,550
appreciate you so much coming on and

1429
00:55:20,170 --> 00:55:17,570
subjecting yourself to some hard

1430
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:20,180
questioning but I like where the kind of

1431
00:55:25,210 --> 00:55:22,250
conversation can go and everything that

1432
00:55:27,490 --> 00:55:25,220
you bring to it so again congratulations

1433
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:27,500
and thanks again for joining me it's

1434
00:55:31,690 --> 00:55:30,050
been a real delight Alex and thank you

1435
00:55:33,490 --> 00:55:31,700
for having me on the show thanks again

1436
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:33,500
to Tim Freak for joining me today on

1437
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:35,839
skeptic oh I guess the question ITU up

1438
00:55:41,020 --> 00:55:38,480
from this interview is do you think it's

1439
00:55:42,370 --> 00:55:41,030
gonna work do you think Tim's approach

1440
00:55:44,410 --> 00:55:42,380
of trying to get science and

1441
00:55:47,470 --> 00:55:44,420
spirituality to play nicely together

1442
00:55:50,940 --> 00:55:47,480
through the common bond of evolution and

1443
00:55:53,050 --> 00:55:50,950
emergence do you think that has a chance

1444
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:53,060
so I'd love to hear your thoughts on

1445
00:55:57,339 --> 00:55:54,650
that of course the place to do it is

1446
00:56:02,589 --> 00:55:57,349
through the skeptic Oh website or the

1447
00:56:05,290 --> 00:56:02,599
skeptical forum ske PTI ke o comm is how

1448
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:05,300
you spell skeptic o so find us there all

1449
00:56:09,550 --> 00:56:07,310
these shows are free you can find over

1450
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:09,560
350 of them there on the website and

1451
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:12,410
then connect tell us what you think tell

1452
00:56:16,270 --> 00:56:14,030
me what you think tell other listeners

1453
00:56:17,620 --> 00:56:16,280
what you think love to hear from you so

1454
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:17,630
I have a number of interesting shows

1455
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:19,609
coming up I know I kind of always say

1456
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:22,970
that but I just am excited about some of

1457
00:56:28,510 --> 00:56:25,280
the interviews that I'm about to publish

1458
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:28,520
or am in the process of producing so I

1459
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:30,050
guess that's a good thing

1460
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:32,510
anyways that's gonna do it for now until